 Chentelle |
Wedding photographer needs help from fine art pho I am a wedding and portrait photographer and I need some advise about my first commercial/fine art job. I was contracted by a local brewhouse to shoot the brewing tanks for the purpose of artwork for the walls of the brewhouse. I agreed to do this at no charge and I will provide 10 of the 16 - 20X24 prints that will be displayed on the wall. In return my name and/or web address will be displayed on every print & I will retain all rights to the photos. And he will have a price on every print in his brewhouse, when they sell we will split the sale price minus the cost of the print. * The first question I have is; How much should I charge for the print? * The next question I have is that now he wants the photographs on his web site. He does not mind linking to my site. I know I want my shots on his site for the publicity however I would very much like to recuperate some of the cost I will be coming out of pocket for the prints for his walls. What is the normal procedure in this case? * Lastly, the manufacture of the brew tanks now want to buy the photos for there web site and I have no Idea what to charge them. All suggestions and advise are greatly appreciated.
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Mark Feldstein |
I think the reasons you're not getting an overwhelming number of responses to this question is because your question isn't very clear and also because it seems you're giving your work away. Most of the pros here will agree that in itself is a somewhat loathesome practice. If I understand your question, it seems you did the shoot for nothing, want to give the guy who owns the brewery 10 large prints but you don't know how much to charge him (or maybe the tank maker) for prints? And then how much to price the prints displayed at the brewery??? There's a third set of prices for internet use?? First of all, what does your contract say? If you shot this work without any written agreement, then you're negotiating an after-the-fact pricing arrangement and therefore at a major disadvantage. You've agreed to provide work for free, prints for no profit, internet usage without any agreement on fees, and seemingly now want to secondarily charge someone else to make up your losses in the first deal. Is that about it?
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Do people buy prints from a brew house?
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Chentelle |
Mark F. That is not correct. I do have a contract. The contract is for the wall art only. This Brew house is a hot new place in my small town. Just about everyone that I market will be going through there and I wanted the exposure. My name on each 20X24 print, my cards on the wall, and brochures next to the exit. It is great advertising. And He gets artwork for his walls. So that was the contract, signed sealed and delivered. I did the shots and gave him the proofs. He loved them and wanted to put them on his web site - Now this was not something that came up before, it was not in the contract and It is something extra that he wants. I am not negotiating with him after the fact, this is a new negotiation for something extra. I came here to ask for some help with web & print pricing from commercial photographers because I have not had to produce this type of pricing before. You guys really are not very hospitable to newcomers looking for help. If you do not understand some facts about a question someone is asking, maybe you could ask before you start chastising.
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Chentelle |
Gregory - I'll let you know. ;)
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- Leslie J. Morris Contact Leslie J. Morris Leslie J. Morris's Gallery |
Chentelle, congratulations on your success! How very exciting to have to have such a problem. Here is a Stock Photography Price Calculator that might help you in a part of your problem. Find out exactly how each party wants to use the photos and then price them accordingly using this calculator. http://www.photographersindex.com/stockprice.htm You can also go to any of the major stock sites and see what they are charging for similar usages. The manufacturer should be willing to pay market price for the images. Don't sell out, you made your investment with the brewhouse, now reap the benefits. Go to other local places selling photographic artwork and compare pricing. Wish I could be more helpful! Good Luck! Leslie
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- Leslie J. Morris Contact Leslie J. Morris Leslie J. Morris's Gallery |
oh, me again, if you find that you are going to be doing this a lot, this program helps, its costs, but it has a wealth of information. http://www.cradocfotosoftware.com/fotoQuote-Pro/index.html Leslie
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Mark Feldstein |
Chentelle: The fundamental problem with your questions is that no one can determine your worth. This is an issue that comes up frequently here. In addition, insofar as I'm aware, there is no such thing as a commercial/fine art shoot. It's one or the other. For sake of discussion, let's call this fine art because you're clearly not receiving commercial fees for this gig. As Leslie said, you need to determine what your market traffic will bear. And what you're doing is a trade-off. You're essentially giving away your work in exchange for marketing. Trying to profit from this will gain you next to nothing especially since your buyer, the guy who owns the bar/brewery, knows your cost for prints (or will) and he doesn't want you to make much, if any, profit off his wall space rental. My guess is that you'll likely find no one patronizing that place will want to pay much more for a print than the cost of the print itself. My suggestion to you is separate your marketing plan and sales strategy into components. Do an analysis of your market, join a professional association and attend local chapter meetings, understand the business aspects of the particular sector you're working in, learn how to determine the value of your services to your client for particular uses, like internet, print, advertising, etc. and THEN start entering into deals. For example, when my work hangs in a corporate headquarters, I don't put price tags on it. Just bylines. I feel prices in that type of venue cheapen the value of my services. Nor do I cut deals to split profits with the corporation I shoot for. That devalues the value of my services as well. Besides, if your prices in the bar are too low to sell prints, you'll likely get a reputation as someone who shoots commercial jobs for the price of the prints. If it's too high, you won't sell many prints and potentially end up pricing yourself our of your small town market. In other words, hang them without charge to the bar owner to get your name out but don't put prices on them and since the guy apparently isn't a gallery owner, don't split the profits with him. He already gains the use of your work for nothing. As to the tank manufacturer, you're talking about a lot of money for usage because THAT is advertising. Join Advertising Photographers of America and you'll see what I mean. Again, consider the value of that work to the client.
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Chentelle |
Mark - Thank you, that was good advise. My question to you at this point is about pride. Where does paying your dues end and pride begin? I mean we all have to start out somewhere, right? I have been a wedding and portrait photographer for about a year. I have made great money and great customers in that year. I am very good at what I do,and I love what I do. So when the opportunity came up to expand my abilities and portfolio I felt like paying some dues might not be such a bad thing. I know you said, "I don't put price tags on it" and "Nor do I cut deals" And that's great when you have years under your belt and a fat portfolio, But we are not all there with you and sometimes you have to put your pride aside to get your name out there and build your portfolio. Before I did this shoot I had zero experience shooting commercial equipment, now I have my first shoot behind me and great shots to show to future clients. I have a tank manufacturer waiting to buy my photos, and my pictures & name displayed on a wall that is not in someones home for the first time. And I managed to learn a few things in the process. Does that really sound like such a bad deal to you?
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Chentelle |
Leslie - Thank you very much. Great info and resources to tap into. I'm going to check them out now.
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Mark Feldstein |
IMO Chentelle, it starts the first day you charge for your work. I get tired of hearing people say things like "you need to get your feet wet" or in terms of charging, "gee, I've never done this before so I don't know what to do". To get their feet wet, I recommend going to the closest lake or ocean. And in my view, they should know what to do before they get into whatever it is they're doing unless they're building something like a toothpick sculpture. Yes, I've been in this business a long time. I pay my dues every time I shoot a gig. Yes, I have pride in what I deliver to my clients and I have a very solid reputation, which you can't buy or sell. You need to earn it and preserve it. If you undersell your work, you immeasurably and irreparably damage not only your own reputation but spoil the ability of pros to earn a living. BTW, IMO, cheap work is not something pros do, but rather a sign of amateurs. And if word gets out that you sell your work cheap, two things in all likelihood will happen: People will question you for not giving them cheap prices when you raise them and will look to the next person or newcomer for cheaper prices; when you need help from an experienced local pro to complete an assignment, be it equipment or their knowledge, you won't get it. I live in a small community on the Northern Calif. Coast but I travel for most of my assignments. There are a couple of "photographers" here who want to consistently charge less than the experienced guys charge yet come to us when they get in over their head. The other pros here are close friends. Do you think we help them when they severely underbid us on local jobs? Maybe you think that's mean huh? BTW, that attitude of underbidding and underselling just to get "experience" carries over into everything else they do. Think about it. One last thing while you're getting your feet wet: If you want to learn how to shoot whatever it is you want to shoot, seek it out, give yourself a personal assignment and shoot it, whether it's a train, an airplane, a building, a beer tank, or whetever else you want to shoot. Put it in your portfolio and bill it as a personal assignment. I did that with a railroad, two airlines, and a hotel chain and national newspaper. Worked for me. Take it light;>)
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Now you have to explain who did you bill it to.
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Mark Feldstein |
Hey Greg ! I guess the billing went to the School of Hard Knocks. Sure wish they weren't a non-profit. :<0 M
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Chentelle |
Thank you all very much for the advise. I have learned a great deal here and I appreciate the time you all took to educate me.
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